Claudine Monteil, first let me say that it is an honor to have you as my interviewee. You are a French writer, feminist, historian, and a former French diplomat. Your doctorate was on the study of Simone de Beauvoir's writings and life. Can you tell us more about yourself, your background, your study, and your work as a diplomat? I was born in 1949 into a French academic scientist family, where both my parents were scientists. But it was so much more difficult for my mother to achieve her passion and her career because French society, very catholic and conservative, would hardly tolerate women scientists at the time, even though Marie Curie and Irène Joliot-Curie were great scientists. Though she was finishing her PhD in chemistry, the male scientists academics tried to prevent her from receiving the promotion she deserved. But she went on, fought inside the French male system, and succeeded into becoming the equivalent of President of Harvard and Smith College in the US, director of the Ecole Normale Supérieure de Jeunes Filles and later director of the Ecole Normale Supérieure (ENS Ulm). Since I was a little girl, as there were often scientists at home, my mother would always show me the ones who were »antifeminists« and opposed to her career. I must add that my mother had read The Second Sex, the essay written by Simone de Beauvoir and published in 1949 (a world bestseller translated into almost fifty languages) while she was pregnant with me, and it had given her even more strength to fight. She was an amazing pioneer and I owe her so much. She always supported me to give me the best education as I wanted to become a writer and a diplomat. For instance, I had the chance of also going to school in the US almost every fall as my father, a mathematician had a position at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton for a few months every year. So, as a teenager wanting to become a diplomat during the Cold War, I started to learn Russian language at school very young, and went for six years every July to the USSR to take courses in Russian universities, including two summers in Kyiv, which in Russian was called then Kiev. So, during the Cold War, where it was very difficult to cross the Berlin Wall, I, then a teenager, did indeed cross it many times, and therefore could compare life in the US, France, and a communist country, quite an experience for a teenager. At university I started learning literature, comparative and French, went for a year in a US College, but at the same time I was very active in the Student Revolt, revolution of May 1968. So because of my activism it took me many years to write my Ph.D on Simone de Beauvoir. At the same time I was first hired as a free lance journalist at the daily newspaper Le Monde (equivalent of The New York Times for France) and then hired as a diplomat on the Eastern European Desk, travelling to communist countries, which was, at the time, quite tough due to the Cold War I cannot say much about my job as a diplomat, as I need to remain discreet. So I will make it short. First, being a diplomat was a fascinating and diverse job. I loved every minute of it, as you need to understand every aspect of a country, political, economical, cultural. You must also understand people’s history and feelings about their condition and their history. But, as a diplomat, you also change of assignment every three or four years. It is an obligation. So after dealing with communist countries, I was in charge of negotiations with Eastern Africa and South Africa, and countries of the Indian Ocean. This is when I managed to go to South Africa regularly, as Nelson Mandela’s liberation was on its way. Because I am always considering social conditions, I wrote some reports on South Africa which seemed with a broader human strategic view than reports written by men, so I had the honour to accompany the wife of the French president to greet Nelson Mandela when he came to France, a few months after his liberation, and to follow him during his official trip in Paris. As I was in charge, at one moment, of negotiations for women’s programs at the UN, it was such an emotional position for me, having been so active in the Women’s Liberation Movement so young, and suddenly representing my country to talk about these issues at the UN. After this, I was at the French Delegation at UNESCO. As a philosopher, I was really impressed when I learned that you worked with famous feminist philosopher and icon Simone de Beauvoir. Can you tell me more about what kind of person, woman, and philosopher de Beauvoir was? Was it easy to converse and work with her or was she a tough, demanding person and intellectual? What are the most memorable and cherishable things that you took from working with de Beauvoir and how did these benefit you as a person, scholar, and feminist? Before meeting Simone de Beauvoir in 1970 at 20 years old, I had been involved in the Students revolution of May 1968 in France, and had created a Women’s Consciousness raising group in a factory. So Sartre had talked to Simone de Beauvoir about me. This is to say, she was the one who wanted to meet me and offered me to participate in every Sunday’s meetings talking place from 5 to 7 at her home. The Womens’ Libération Movement was founded in late August 1970, and I joined it in October of the same year. Simone de Beauvoir, one of the most respected feminist icon at the time in the world, had wanted to join it. It was both easy and tough for a simple reason. She spoke extremely fast, very straight forward, and at the same time very respectful. So she made you feel she was speaking to you from equal to equal. The first time I was at her apt, she stared at me, and asked me what I, at 20 years old (42 years younger than she!), was suggesting for a campaign for free abortion. I discovered that I had to reply immediately. So she treated me with a great sense of equality and respect, but expected from me to reply as fast as she had spoken. And it went on like this for sixteen years! She was so bright, you needed to remain totally concentrated as if you were in front of a jury and pass an examination! So, every time I left her appartment, I was exhausted, even though I was 42 years younger than her… She was both warm and impressive, but, influenced by her aristocratic education. So, at first, she did not want to show her feelings. So a British friend of mine compared her behaviour to Queen Elizabeth’s, never complaining, never showing her emotions. As a matter of fact she could seem to be cold, where in reality when was a very warm, generous person. For instance, she helped so many women financially, but with the condition that they would never know who helped them or saved them from poverty. She was very patient also with the young feminist I was considering that she would spend days and nights to save all women of the world and never relax… In reality she had a great, great heart. And I will always love her dearly and be grateful to her. The most memorable and cherishable moments with her were first the moments on Sundays, and after a few years, the moments when we were the two of us only when I became a diplomat and wrote my Ph.D on her life and activism. We would be the two of us together, chating, and she would always be tender to me in a very modest way. She would always be very supportive of me, any time, and after her sister, the painter Hélène de Beauvoir, had become a very close friend of mine, she would always ask me about my diplomatic trips and missions, as there were, at the time, very few women diplomats in France. Was Beauvoir more inclined towards women or men as intimate partners or to equally both? Both. She loved men, first the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, Nobel prize in literature, the great love of her life, in parallel the American writer Nelson Algren, afterwards the French writer and movie producer Claude Lanzmann. But she also had affairs with two or three young women, 17 years old, during her youth when she was a high school teacher. It was reproached to her, but nevertheless these young women remained her friends until her passing. So to me, she was bisexual, but she never acknowledged it in public, because she had been fired from the French educational system during World War II for having had private affairs with students. She had been very hurt by this. Besides, during her life time, lesbianism was very poorly considered, and it is still a difficult issue in France, due to the influence of Catholicism. I feel sorry for her for not having been able to express her bisexuality openly. I could see how painful it was on her. But, please, may I ask you not to blame her, as it is important not to forget the historical context in which she was living. Speaking of Beauvoir and feminism, you yourself are also a very important person for French feminism, being one of the founders of the French women's rights movement in 1970. That was surely an important and exciting time that the younger generation has no proper insight and knowledge of but you being in at that time and place can surely describe what was the thought and emotion behind your activism that started sisterhood in France and around the world? It was an amazing lively moment, where we wanted to change the world, right away, and not wait for a possible revolution or change of government. Also our decision that only women could participate in the meetings was right to the point. There, we were not interrupted by patronizing men, or being judged. It was a wonderful feeling, which permitted us to express our imagination to change the world, and we did it ! Also, all our meetings were full of humour, discussions with laugh, drinks, songs, so different and opposite to co-head meetings where only men could take the floor and would speak in a patronizing and arrogant tone. I was also very active with some American feminists, amazing brave women who had founded the Feminists Women’s Health Centers, all around the US, and which were providing abortions for a very cheap price in a very healthy condition. I visited these clinics many times between 1974-1980 but years after years, due to Reagan having become president of the United States, these feminists women received death threats, were harassed, and soon their clinics were bombed. Even though Simone de Beauvoir, the French feminists and I were supporting them, at the time the networks did not exist so it was much harder to launch an international campaign of support. Some of these clinics still exist, and they do an amazing job. The founder of these clinics is Carol Downer, a remarkable woman I admire and I recommend you to consult on Wikipedia. How do you perceive the relation between feminism and lesbianism in France in the '80-'90s and today? What needs to be done and what did you achieve? In the 80-90 ies there were no division between feminists, lesbian or not. The question was mentioned from time to time, as there were many lesbian women in the feminist movement, but the top priority of our activism was concentrated on free abortion. It seems to me that, though it is easier now to declare yourself a lesbian, there is still a ways to go. I think it is still hard for many men to accept the reality that some women love other women and feel attracted to men. But at the same time, I see younger men being much more open and tolerant to lesbianism, as a one form of gender. Of course, there are still terrible men, but lesbianism is becoming more accepted around French society. And as you know, women can get married now. So families get more open about their lesbianism. In a a way, it seems to me that same sex marriage has been an incredible useful tool to incite families to accept the reality of lesbianism inside their own environment. Families are, at last, considering that what counts the most now is that their daughter, sister, sometimes colleague or mother, can be happy in her love life with another woman. You worked at the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs as a diplomat (retired in 2014) that was tackling the relations between France and institutions of the United Nations (such as UNICEF, UNFPA, and alike). Please, name one of the most challenging, one of the most successful, and one of the happiest achievements during your work. It has been a very happy achievement to work for France on women issues, to pronounce feminists words at the United Nations that Simone de Beauvoir and I had already written, and fought for fifty years earlier. There, fifty years later, I was been able to pronounce them at UNFPA, UNICEF, UNWomen. It has been an incredible feeling of accomplishment, as es for years in the 70-ies, I had had the impression that whatever we were denouncing, no one was paying attention to us and to the issues of women’s oppression and women’s rights. How do you think that the corona-virus period changed the prospects of the sisterhood and feminist movement in France and around the world and how do you think politics, especially diplomacy tackled the issue? The corona-virus has been a disaster around the world for women and women’s rights. Millions of young women have been stuck, incapable of going to school, married by their parents at even a younger age, raped, becoming mothers at 14, 15 years old, abandoning school now. Unesco and the UN have calculated that for many millions of women around the world their rights have gone 30 years backward. A disaster. Also million of women did not have access to family planning during this time, have had unwanted pregnancy and will never go back to school. Politics and diplomats have tried to take this reality into consideration but due to Covid, now to the war in Ukraine and the blocades, it is very difficult for international UN institutions, like UNPA and UNICEF, and UN Women programs to be implemented. We were both part of Sandrine Rousseau's eco-feminist campaign in primaries in September 2021 but you were more insidious while I was only a foreign contributor/supporter. How did you help Mrs. Rousseau with your vast knowledge and experience in feminism and diplomacy and how do you access Rousseau's campaign from a political and sisterhood point of view? Why do you think she didn't win the Green candidacy for this April presidential race? France is still a very patriarchal society, not ready at all to elect a woman president, even inside the Green party which remains a macho party. But she has been amazing in forcing men and women to hear about women’s issues and issues on environment and trying to protect and promote women’s rights. She may not have won the election, but she won in people perception’s of women and climate change issues much more than public opinion is ready to acknowledge at the moment. And she was very badly treated by the medias, the social networks, as Simone de Beauvoir was when she published The Second Sex and as we feminists were insulted in the 70-ies. These insults, in a way, are a good sign. They mean Sandrine Rousseau is getting right to the point in her speeches and actions and is threatening patriarchy. Good for her. What inspires you most in your work and in your personal life, where your inspiration comes from? International affairs, writing and women’s issues and actions for human rights. I am a fighter, an activist, and I cannot imagine writing without being active on the field. I feel very close to people needs, women’s needs, and get very angry at injustice, humiliation so many women face every day. Since my childhood, I feel very aware of the fact that everything is political. I started learning Russian and going to Russia in 1964, in the middle of the Cold War, when I was a high school kid. I saw how women’s situations in the USSR was not idealistic as the Soviet regime pretended. Therefore, when I started being involved in the Women’s Liberation Movement in France in 1970, my first purpose was to change the women’s conditions in France immediately, and not wait for a future revolution where women would be put back in the kitchen and would have to obey to men. Of course, the great inspiration comes first from my mother, secondly from Simone de Beauvoir. I have heard about Simone de Beauvoir by my mother and father since I was a little girl. They admired her so much, and were so surprised and fascinated when I became, though I was so young at 20, a friend of Simone de Beauvoir who was 62 at the time and so respected and well known. But it is thanks to my parents. Then Simone de Beauvoir introduced me to her sister, the painter Hélène de Beauvoir, who grew up in the shadow of Simone, accomplished a body of work of 3000 paintings and engravings, some representing women oppressed, attacked, women and nature, problems of pollution, and women liberating the world. Hélène de Beauvoir had exhibits of her work all around the world. Hélène de Beauvoir and I became intimate friends and I have published my Memoirs on my friendship with Simone and Hélène, translated into ten languages including in English, named The Beauvoir Sisters (Seal Press, 2004). So these 3 women, my mother, Simone and Hélène de Beauvoir, have been and still are an inspiration in my life. At last but not least, what are you currently working on and what are your plans for the future? I have published a biography a few months ago on three remarkable women, which title is Marie Curie and Her Daughters (Calmann-Lévy, 2021) and which will have some translations to be published at the end of this year in five countries. Marie Curie, twice Nobel prize in physics and chemistry, and her daughters, Nobel prize Irène Joliot-Curie, and her youngest daughter, a fighter who fought against the Nazis, Eve Curie. Marie Curie lived a rich life as a scientist, a woman and a mother. Sadly, tragedy strikes in 1906 with the sudden death of Pierre Curie, and she is left alone a widow. Still this does not hinder the education that she provided for her two daughters which leads each of them to a great destiny. Irene Joliot-Curie will follow the scientific path of her mother: from the age of seventeen she is on the battlefields of the Great War to save the wounded using new medical materials. Then, later, alongside her mother in the research work of the Radium Institute. In 1935, together with her husband Frédéric Joliot-Curie, she wins the Nobel Prize in chemistry. A committed activist she took part in the struggle for women's rights and against Nazism, long before the Second World War. She becomes the first female member of the French government in 1936, despite the fact that French women still do not have right to vote. Just as her mother Marie Curie, who dies in 1934, was never allowed to vote in the country where she changed the history of the world. After a successful career as an international pianist, Eve Curie, the youngest daughter, chooses to pursue literature and diplomacy. She writes the first biography on her mother—the award-winning "Madame Curie,” which receives the prestigious National Book Award in 1937. Eve Curie was the only non scientist in her scientist family who received five Nobel prizes. She became one of the first and most important French diplomat in the nineteen forties and fifties, meeting thousands of people to persuade the US to join the Allied forces alongside de Gaulle against Hitler. She was a close friend of Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt and rubbed shoulders with the greatest thinkers of the time, from Gandhi to Winston Churchill during World War II. Years later, she will become the special Senior Advisor of the first General Secretary of NATO during the Cold War giving her the highest diplomatic position for a French woman diplomat. These are three pioneering, inspiring, free, and powerful women. I have started writing a new biography on some remarkable women, as my goal is to make visible women who have made history but have been totally forgotten or put aside. I am also currently very active in actions in France, Europe on women’s rights. I am president of a women’s group NGO called Femmes Monde, Women World, which organizes meetings with women who have can be an inspiration to other women. I am also the godmother of a young women’s group Feminists in the City, who promote guided visits and Masterclasses about women’s history both in French and English, and which have thousands of women from around the world which follow them and come to France to enjoy the feminists visits on women painters at the Louvre, at Versailles, and so on. Their president is Julie Maranger, a very dynamic young feminist, who graduated from the Political science Institute. Julie Marangé is now acknowledged all over France and in some countries like the UK, the US, and Australia. I always remind the young feminists what Simone de Beauvoir said to me in 1974, when public opinion was starting to become in our favour and when, at last, there was an opening from the French government to change the law on abortion, which was considered a crime at the time: »Simone, we have won!« I said to her, so excited, as I was 24 years old. Simone remained still: »No Claudine, we may have won presently, but not permanently. We could lose our rights again, just with another political, economical and religious crisis. All your life, you will need to remain vigilant.« She so was right, of course. Just think at the young Afghan women who, fifty years ago, could wear skirts and walk without a veil. Now their lives are a disaster. And my conclusion will be: Feminism keeps you young and alert!
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